How Would You Beat Healthcare Using Jobs-to-be-Done?

Jay Haynes: 0:00

Welcome back to How would you beat where we discuss how you can use jobs to be done innovation methods to beat your competition and create equity value faster with less risk. Remember to subscribe and like this podcast. In this episode, we're going to look at healthcare. How would you beat your competitors in healthcare markets? Healthcare is obviously a huge domain, it is a meaningful percentage of GDP. So if you were going to innovate in healthcare to create equity value, how would you do it? How can jobs to be done help your product marketing and sales teams create equity value faster? And with less risk in a market domain? Like healthcare?

Jared Ranere: 0:39

That's a great question. And so to get after this, we're going to look at the customers in healthcare. How would you define them? How would you identify attractive customer segments? And how you would create an innovation strategy to create equity value in healthcare? So to start with, J, how do you think we should define customers in healthcare? How is that different from any other industry?

Jay Haynes: 1:01

Yeah, that's a great question. And the customer is everything healthcare is is a great way to demonstrate the power of using jobs to be done to identify which customer you're targeting. So first of all, let's look at traditional customer definition methods. Because why don't we just use the traditional methods. And the traditional methods include things like creating customer personas, and that seems to make sense. And you know, there's obviously a lot of value into persona, you're trying to empathize and create a personality in a real person, even if they're fictitious, at least they're a human, who's struggling. So you might, you know, create Kate, Kate, who's a nurse, or Paul, who's a patient, or Sarah, who's a cardiovascular surgeon, and create profiles around those people. And those are, those are really interesting ways to think about this, except they have some problems is that they're they're really can have characteristics, demographic characteristics, right? Are they older Young? Are they experienced? Are they inexperienced? Are they rural? Or urban? Are they high income, low income, you know, it can get very confusing quickly, about which dimension of their persona characteristics should you focus on? And which dimension of that persona is the actual cause of why they're going to buy your product? So, Jared, you know, we think about it. That's the traditional way, but we think about it a little differently. And jobs theory shows why it can be valuable to identify customers in a different way. So how do we do that?

Jared Ranere: 2:37

Yeah, and I think one one thing to say, personas is that you can use them well, as long as you include what their goals are, and what their struggles are to achieve those goals. It's when you leave those out and focus only on their characteristics that you miss the key reasons why you should target that particular persona and what you should do to help them. So the way we define that to bake it into the customer definition, is we break the customer into three different types. You've got a job beneficiary, who is the person who benefits from some goal being achieved in their life, the job beneficiary is really why the market exists because they benefit from achieving that goal. They're looking for new solutions to get that job done. And we've got the job executor, who is the person who is doing the work to get the job done. So they may or may not benefit it. In some cases, they actually benefit from the work being a little bit harder because it means they keep their employment. So you see some markets where there's a lot of administrative work to do to get the job done. And there are some people who are hired to do that administrative work. And if that administrative work goes away and makes it easier for the job beneficiary than the job executor goes away to they they lose their employment, they lose their occupation, or in a best case scenario, they get reallocated to doing something else. But

Jay Haynes: 4:00

just a quick a quick example that to demonstrate the difference between job beneficiaries and executors is SAS market. It's such a great example because you know, before SAS before as you know, people may know before SAS you had to install an application on your desktop or a laptop. And if you are an enterprise you had to install an application on your servers to allow your employees it was called on premise software because it was on the the the company's premise actual physical premise. Now it all exists in the cloud and what happened there was the IT managers the people who had to set up all this on premise stuff and give you the access the applications were these gatekeepers and and they were part of helping your company you know, install a CRM system, but obviously not having to install it at all is a huge advantage. You just eliminate the need for any IT manager to manage Salesforce, because you can just you know any human can go in and say, Does Jared have access to RC CRM system yes or no? Yeah. and at what level? So there's no installation. There's no, you know, configuration, there's no administrator, there's still no access. But it's very, very easy. And it removed IT managers, which, you know, installing software, enterprise software used to be a multibillion dollar business, and now it's zero. So that's because the employees, the beneficiary, you know, the manager, or the executive who's getting the employees on the application are the beneficiaries.

Jared Ranere: 5:25

Yeah, and you can see that and especially small and mid market, businesses have few, if not any, IT managers, they, they literally just don't have the function. Whereas in large enterprises still do, but they're really focused on security and networking and a bunch of other things.

Jay Haynes: 5:40

Yeah, and in healthcare, it's the exact same thing. The example we love to use is a phlebotomist. You know, who is helping a patient or a doctor obtain a blood sample, to diagnose the disease, for example, and, and a phlebotomist is a very complicated job, you have to get a lot of training to stick a needle in someone and draw their blood. We've all experienced it and and yet, a company called seven cents we worked with is invented a device that allows a patient to do it themselves. So no need for a phlebotomist, you can just stick this thing on, it's painless, it draws your blood, you can't mistake it. It's very accurate, incredibly fast and painless. It's beautiful device. It's only being used for clinical drug trials, it can't get enough right now, blood for diagnosis, but you know, that's where it's gonna go, someone will bet a device, you'll never have to get stuck by a phlebotomist ever again, thankfully, because no one enjoys that experience. And that's a good example of targeting the beneficiary is the real market, patients are always going to need to obtain a blood sample phlebotomist are just the executors,

Jared Ranere: 6:40

right. And what's interesting in that market as well is the patients don't decide how much they're going to pay to have their blood taken. And in many cases don't get to decide if they use something like seven cents or a phlebotomist to do that. And that's because of what we call purchase control divergence where the purchase decision maker or the purchaser The third type of customer is different than your job executor, and your job beneficiary. So the three types of customers we define and jobs to be done our job beneficiaries, job executors, and purchasers or purchase decision makers. And in consumer markets, they're often the same person, all three, right? If you're trying to get to destination on time, you will decide if you will buy a car to do that, you will drive yourself to your destination. So you will execute the job. And you'll also benefit because you're the one trying to get there. And so you play all three roles. The thing about health care markets is these are almost always three people. And once you recognize that the complications of how you figure out which customer to target, and the unmet needs you need to satisfy for all three customers. It just compounds, healthcare markets tend to be far more complex, each different customer will have additional jobs that they have to do and on different unmet needs. And you have to create a strategy that applies to all of that. So yeah, we have these broad customer definitions. Jay, how do we get into segments? I mean, we're not even there yet.

Jay Haynes: 8:13

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And but those those customer definitions are really important, because the true equity value creation, companies that really innovate are innovating across the beneficiaries, the executors and the purchase decision makers. And you know, it makes sense, you can't have an incredible solution for a patient that insurance company is not going to pay for, because you got to understand what the insurance company who is the payer, whether it's, you know, the government or private insurance, they're gonna put it onto their system, because it's got some sort of benefit for the beneficiaries, the doctors and the patients and nurses, even hospitals. And it does something that is going to ultimately though their cost of insurance right there, they're looking at, you know, how expensive is what the return is. So the huge equity value winds come from creating all a solution that targets all three of those. Now, the the what you mentioned about segments is that this is crucially important in this kind of complicated market. So if you're looking at cardiovascular patients, or if you're looking at you know, cancer patients, or if you're looking at a hospital administrators or nurses, that what you want to identify is that group of nurses, administrators, surgeons, patients, whoever it is, that is really struggling with the job. And of course, we have a huge database of jobs. So it depends on which one is it you know, related to cancer, heart disease or hospital administration that the job is the key, but you're using that job to figure out who has the most underserved or the unmet needs in the market? Because those those are the people who have an extremely high probability of buying your product. You they're gonna drive everybody else they're gonna drive the purchase decision maker They're going to drive everything else because they are pounding their head for a solution, either for their patients or out of the patients or as a hospital, you know, whatever part of the market you're targeting, that's the most valuable customer in the market.

Jared Ranere: 10:14

Yeah. And I think that when you have three different types of customers, who are three different individuals, right? Imagine you're trying to imagine you are seven cents, and you've got this blood testing solution. And are you selling to your consumers? The patients who are getting blood taken? Are you selling to phlebotomist? Or are you selling to? You know, healthcare administrators or insurance companies? And which group do you segment off of? Right? So do you create a segment within each customer? Do you choose one? How do you choose? Do you always segment off the beneficiary? This is where it gets very complex, I think.

Jay Haynes: 10:52

Yeah, and I think it's always good to start with the beneficiary is, you know, as we always say, that's the reason the market exists. So you could have segmented IT managers and created a new product for IT managers to install on premise software. And then all of a sudden, you know, SAS comes along and your product is totally irrelevant, because the job executor comes away. And by definition, seven cents case, they are targeting the removal of a job executor, you don't have to go to a phlebotomist. Now, it was interesting, there's some constraints there, which is they can they can use it for drug trial samples, but they weren't able to use it for, you know, cancer screening. My understanding, so in that case, you would look at drug trials, and you'd say, Okay, who are the companies that are that are struggling the most with this part of drug trials of obtaining a blood sample and getting the samples on time of figuring out if it's accurate, you know, you have to do stuff and care for the blood sample. This is where also a lot of consumption jobs come in, like, how do you get this thing to the patient? And how do you get it back on time, you know, to make sure the samples in the right condition, it makes sure the sample is taken the right time? It's very complicated.

Jared Ranere: 12:03

Yeah. What's interesting about this example is that the job changes the beneficiary, right? So if the if you can use it in drug trials, and the job becomes, you know, completed completed drug trials successfully, right? Yep, demonstrate that your drug is safe and effective for the FDA, or any other government agency that needs to go, he's going to regulate we're in whatever country you're in. And the beneficiary of that somewhere down the road is the patient, because they're going to get to take the drug and improve their health condition. But for the trial itself, the beneficiary is the medical affairs officer who's running that trial, right, and wants to have safe and effective outcomes and make sure the trial is run correctly and as fast as possible. So in that scenario, because of the job you're focused on in the healthcare domain, you end up in kind of a b2b situation, where you're a beneficiary as a professional, and the patient plays a role as a job executor in that case.

Jay Haynes: 13:06

Yeah, and that's a great example of where the the market, you may initially think that the market is to obtain a blood sample. So that is a big part of the job domain. Obviously, obtaining blood sample is, you know, just it's, obviously our blood contains a lot of data that goes into the evaluation of drugs or diagnosis or whatever. And so if you were if you started, so if you were seven cents, and you said okay, we're starting this drug trial, we're targeting this beneficiary who's running the drug trial, the patient benefits obviously, from hopefully more accurately, and less painfully taking the drug, the blood sample and turning it in, then you really start to look at the the job of testing a drug and humans running these clinical drug trials. So then what information would you put inside your your a phlebotomist tube, you know, your your blood collection tube, whereas right now, you know, it's just as it's Jared, and here's the date of birth, and when it was taken, you know, in the phlebotomy, since then, but you can make that that intelligence on the device, that then becomes part of the information and then you start to build out the software that helps analyze that information, you move into different job steps. So creating equity value is often about this movement into different jobs steps to help the customer get the whole job done, as we say, and, you know, testing a drug hypothesis in humans is just like an unbelievably complicated job in domain. So even if you can move into another job step that's right adjacent to obtaining a blood sample, you start to create more and more value in that over time. That's how you get really big equity value creation, because you just start to take over more of the job. And this is what this is what happens in all markets, right? I mean, we used to just think of what it used to take to get to a destination on time you had a paper map, you'd listen to the radio to hear the weather reports you had to look up, you know, the newspaper, if there were sports game and you're trying to go got that you have to like compile as information. And it wasn't accurate. Now you just want app you get in your apple Google Maps. And it's telling you everything. I mean, it's pretty accurate. Yeah. And that's, that's true in here that, you know, if you're going to create equity value these, this is the way to do it.

Jared Ranere: 15:20

So going back to the segmentation question, and which customer Do you run your segmentation on? Right? If you're looking for a group of people who struggle a lot with the job? Do you do that with a beneficiary the executor or the purchase decision maker? I think the answer is that you have to analyze the situation, you have to think through what is the job that you're trying to serve? What is, you know, how much does the executor play a role? And are you likely to develop a technology? Or is any Are any of your competitors likely develop a technology in the time horizon of your revenue goals? Right? So So it all comes down to what are you trying to develop a product that's going to drive revenue and on what timeframe. So if you're talking about your strategy for the next year, and you don't see a technology that exists, that could help remove the job executor within the next year, then you can segment off of your job executor because you can find the job executors that struggle the most, you can build a roadmap to satisfy their needs, and they'll buy over the course of the next year. If you're talking about a five year time horizon, that changes your technological assessment and the likelihood that the job executor might be removed from the equation. And then you you are better off segmenting your job beneficiary. So it's your strategy is dependent upon the revenue that you're trying to drive and you're trying to hit because the segment also needs to be willing to pay the right amount that you can achieve those revenue goals, right?

Jay Haynes: 16:50

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, and this is why having this data is so valuable on the segments, because it makes the decision making in the team agreement on what your growth strategy is to create equity value, you know, it makes it much easier to get aligned on this. Because if you're looking at the customer struggles at the beneficiary level, you're looking at the customer struggles at the executor level, and you're looking at the customer struggles at the payer level. That's where you really can triangulate you say this makes so much sense. Because right now, in with technology that's available today, we can satisfy these needs faster and more accurately, and less painlessly or painlessly, more painlessly. So that so that, you know, you're creating value. And if you're, if you're then going to have to target leads that do require that real r&d like scientific breakthroughs. So, you know, in Seventh Sense case, it was they didn't know yet how to draw enough blood with this microneedle array. But that's where, you know, you send out your team and keep working on it, right? Because that might not happen in 23. But what about 25? You know, then you're really targeting not just drug trials, you're, you're targeting every single person getting a blood test every day in the United States, that's a big market. Right? And, and then the other is that, you know, once you take the blood sample, and you're diagnosing it, you know, being able to say, Okay, can we diagnose more accurately, what do we need to look at there, and that's where, and that's also where you can get into acquisitions. Because, you know, if they're not currently in their business, it could be a new diagnostic company that's taking that kind of data and building stuff. And it's a great partnership for between them, because you help get more of the job done.

Jared Ranere: 18:37

Yeah. So you have different strategies and different time horizons. And I think, you know, we should take a second to articulate how we define a strategy and jobs to be done. So you've got the customer that you're going to focus on, whether it be whether it's the beneficiary, the executor, or the purchase decision maker, you have the job that you want to get done for them, because you think that they're willing to pay to do that a lot better. You have a segment, a smaller group of those customers that are struggling to get the job done, and are willing to pay enough that you can focus only on them and achieve your revenue goal for that time horizon. And finally, the unmet needs that you want to satisfy for that segment. So how do we think about unmet needs in healthcare? Right, we've got like, I think the most interesting example to me is when we look at condition markets, right? So let's say you want to go after live well, with type two diabetes, there's a lot of people who have type two diabetes, it's it's a very difficult condition to to deal with right to have a nice life while you have it. There are unmet needs there. How do we figure out what they are?

Jay Haynes: 19:47

Yeah, that's great. And the good news is they are knowable, that the the needs are all knowable. So what does it take to live with diabetes? Right? You know, that is an incredibly important job. For, unfortunately, a growing number of Americans. And so that's a lot of complicated information. And, you know, we always say this, but a job is a goal you're trying to achieve. So live well, with diabetes, that's, that's a goal, like, I don't want it to, like destroy my life, or I want to minimize the disruptions, you know, and I certainly don't want to increase my health risk, because I have diabetes, what can I do to, you know, reduce the potential for other things to happen that are adverse to my health. So in that case, there are a set of variables. And this is what we always, you know, do is start with this kind of analysis and demonstrate that there are a series of variables within living with diabetes that are knowable, and that are independent of any solutions or products. You know, there's, there's no, there's no need to use AI to live with diabetes. Right? Right. Maybe it is, you know, AI will help with some element of diabetes. But, you know, that's not what's critically important part of the job, No one wakes up that might

Jared Ranere: 21:01

drive a solution, but it's not what the customer is trying to solve on the day to day basis.

Jay Haynes: 21:05

That's right. And, and the theory, the reason it's so valuable to drive equity value in healthcare markets is because, you know, the cause of when someone purchases a product, which is they struggle to get the job done. In other words, the variables in the job are very hard to get accurate information on, they're very hard to use to make decisions accurately, you know, etc, etc. So the innovation strategy really has to be based on the unmet needs, that are in that segment, because that enables you to prioritize what problem to focus on. So a simplified ways, you're creating an innovation strategy, because someone has a big problem that needs to be solved. And you just need to figure out where to focus. That's what your strategy is like living with diabetes, that's a very high 30,000 foot, look at the market. That's not enough for a product team to say, Okay, here's a fracture, we're going to build on a product or service, that's going to create customer value and equity value.

Jared Ranere: 22:06

Yeah, and I think one of the things that's super interesting about healthcare markets is that there's a lot of clinical information out there about how patients struggle with certain conditions. And that's a piece of the puzzle, right? So you can look at, you know, the well known protocols for staying healthy while you have type two diabetes. And that's a great piece of information to help you understand what all the variables are, that go into getting that job done, there are a series of milestones that you have to hit and be aware of, there's data that you have to measure, in order to stay healthy while you have diabetes. And the clinical studies can tell you how various populations failed to meet those milestones on a regular basis, their metrics are off, they're struggling to stay healthy, and they can tell you how they're struggling. Now, there are also lots of examples of products that have gotten out there and tried to solve these clinical problems that haven't been adopted. And the question is why? And Joss Whedon, I think, provides a really interesting answer to that, which is, the patient may not perceive that to be their own problem. And so in healthcare markets, there's a difference between what the clinical studies say is the problem with the condition or the problem that patients are having, and what patients perceive their problem to be. And it's very hard to sell something to somebody. So it's very hard to sell a solution to a problem that the customer doesn't perceive they have. Yeah, so I think this is really critical in healthcare.

Jay Haynes: 23:37

Yeah. And it's interesting, because, you know, a job is obviously, a series of decisions and information that you need to gather to achieve the goal. And, I mean, I think everybody knows, you know, I should, I should eat healthier, I should exercise more, I should get more sleep. I mean, you know, the basics help, but even that is hard. Right? So you add in having a health condition, diabetes, you know, tpod, just cancer, cardiovascular disease, like all the potential problems, long COVID. Now, right. The, the, the difficulties that you have, as a patient in that case, are, are exactly what you say they're very personal, like those are how do you struggle, and that's why, you know, jobs theory so useful here because you can look at what it takes to actually live with, you know, cardiovascular disease and then break it down and identify the segment who's struggling the most regardless of like, the clinical population, you know, diagnosis, right. And that's, that's true. This is true for doctors, you know, surgeons, nurses, pediatricians, hospital administrators, whatever their goal is, it's the same method to be able to say, Okay, if you're trying to, you know, optimize hospital cash flow, or, you know, optimize payments, you know, insurance payments, your hospital Like, that's just a very complicated process and system. And that kind of complexity is where Josina is really useful because he breaks down your innovation strategy into actionable items that are stable, they're not going to change over time, because they're part of the job. And they're going to lead to equity value creation, because you can figure out that the customers are paying a lot of money to get the job done, and are willing to pay to get the job done. So before you make that investment, and you know, your equity value team, your product marketing and sales team, you can have a much better assessment of the return on that investment.

Jared Ranere: 25:35

Yeah, I think that's super interesting to create that assessment and de risk, what you build. And I think, one way, you know, a technique that I think is really useful in healthcare markets, is if somebody is aware of a population problem or a clinical problem, like for example, we don't have enough data about the glucose, the glucose levels of people with type two diabetes, they don't, it's not being measured frequently enough, and therefore, we can't make conclusions about you know, the medications quickly enough, we can't respond quickly enough, we have to wait until the next patient appointment, which might be on an annual or quarterly basis. And by then, we've missed out on time, you could you could call that a problem, kind of with with a condition, right? It's kind of a medical problem. But then the key is, do the patients think about it that way? Are they sitting around going? You know, my problem is that I'm not measuring enough. And I would really love to measure more, or are they saying my problem is I'm being told to measure and it's really painful. Or my problem is that every time I measure, I get these numbers, and I don't know what to do with them. So there's no benefit to me. So why would I bother measuring. And it's that next step, it's not saying like, there is a problem in the world, it's saying, there's a problem my person has, is recognizing that there are some humans out there who should be aware of their issue. And, you know, I, you know, people often say to me, like, we, I want to solve this world problem, I hear our entrepreneurs talk to us all the time, like, I want to solve the fact that there's too much carbon in the atmosphere, it's like, great, I agree that that's a problem, and it should be solved. But if you want to create a business, you need to figure out which individuals are trying to solve that and are struggling to do it and are willing to pay to do it better. And that's true in healthcare as well.

Jay Haynes: 27:31

Yeah. And you can see, let's, let's do a little innovation session here to off this innovation strategy on blood glucose for blood glucose, glucose. for diabetes, clearly, I can't say that word. And the way that you would think about it is, the patient should have to absolutely do nothing. That is the goal. This is we always say there's a Pandora for every industry because Pandora, you just push a button and create a mood with music, there was no playlist was no searching through the store, there's no organizing them figure out what mood you know, you just push play and you're in the mood. That'll happen here, too. So if if a different job beneficiary let's say it is the doctors or the hospital system, or the insurance companies who try to look at a patient population of diabetes, diabetics, and they're trying to use this information, and obviously, the information is very valuable to the actual diabetic, because it tells them, hey, you know, this is when you need a shot, and you know, the whole the whole process, right? It's valuable information. So you could see, were gathering that information, which is, you know, huge steps. In any job gathering the information and making sure it's accurate in understanding it is super important. And it's being automated. So you're watch the Apple Watch, every time they release a new one, it's more healthcare data. And now you can see that for a diabetic just having, you know, maybe it's an armband, or maybe it is a watch, and it gives you a tiny micro needle prick that you don't even feel now whether you could get enough blood, that's another question. But you could see how it becomes something that's somewhat automated like that. And it automatically uploads that data. It's, it's saying, Okay, we're gonna, this goes to your doctor, it goes to your healthcare provider, it goes, your insurance company goes to your team that is going to say, you know, Jay, you're doing okay, or Oh, my gosh, something's going wrong. We need to adjust. Here's what we do. So you can live your life, you know, automatically as a diabetic without having to worry about that one element of the job. And yeah, that happened. Good. That happens in every market. This is where all the markets will go towards, you know, you push one button and the job is done.

Jared Ranere: 29:34

Yeah, and I think the the Apple Watch is a really, especially good example, like every now and then I'll notice a red light underneath it, and I'm like, Oh, it might it might be doing, you know, like a low fidelity EKG or measuring my blood oxygen content. And I'm pretty sure it has alerts in the system for when the numbers go right. And then you know, you can contact your doctor and get a higher fidelity test and identify if there's a real problem. going on. But that early warning is impressive. And it's coming from a company that other healthcare companies might not think is a competitive threat until it starts happening. So it's, it's one of these examples of a non traditional competitor or an indirect competitor, right? It's not an insurance company. It's not a hospital facility. You know, if you're Philips, you're not looking at Apple who's like, you know, doing music distribution and music players and you know, telephony and all these other things and saying, gee, we better watch out for them and health, until they do it. And it's a great example of, you know, if you have technology and you have a good understanding of the customer's job, you can get into markets that you're not known for. Yeah, and you can succeed in those markets. You're not restricted by the the brand understanding of what you do.

Jay Haynes: 30:55

Yeah. And that's a good example, apples always great to look at these because obviously, it's the most successful company in the world. But what it's consistently done is move towards the job beneficiary. You know, Steve Jobs famously said this. And their innovation strategy was to target the consumer. They said we he called it managers orifices, I think, something very jobs in. But he was very meaningful. He was he was, he said, we're going to target consumers. That's why people ultimately the other day, these are the customers we want, because they're we're going to change their lives. You know, it's the intersection of science and liberal arts, as he famously said, and we're going to help them get jobs done. And I always love that Apple kept the mouse at one button forever, not because it was some, you know, puritanical, like Steve Jobs Mission, but he wanted the software to be so simple, that any consumer could use it, you click a button to get the job done. Not so it was it was a constraint on the hardware and software designers to make sure they made the software easy enough to use. And that's really what they're doing with patients here. They are targeting patients. So I saying look, in I bought an Apple Watch for a good friend of mine who lives in a pretty rural place, he's older, he's had some health issues. And just for the emergency notification, you know, he's he's not in a, you know, City where he just dials 911 Ambulance shows up in 30 seconds. Right? You know, and I want to help him, obviously, if he has another health condition. So it's super valuable to target that. Now, you know, you can't perform cardiovascular surgery on yourself yet. You still need, you know, the healthcare system. But you should always be thinking of the beneficiary. So that's how you know, you want to define the customer. And obviously, within those beneficiaries that the customer segment you want to target. And once you have that, that's how you build your optimal innovation strategy based on the customer, the job and the unmet needs. And all of this is how it comes together to create equity value in health care markets. And that's what we yeah, we ultimately want is growing more effective healthcare solutions that are creating equity value, because they're growing, because they're helping the job beneficiaries. That's, that's really key.

Jared Ranere: 33:03

And just one last point on that is, you can dismiss the Steve Jobs as a competitor, if he's saying we're going to target consumers and your Microsoft or your Philips and you're saying, Well, we're b2b, or we're medical company, you know, we target other businesses or we target hospitals. There's always a human at the end of a purchase. And you need to figure out that who that human is and if, if they're the beneficiary ends up being a consumer or the beneficiary ends up being you know, in a CEO of a hospital who's trying to, you know, maintain their margins and deliver patient outcomes. They're still a person and you need to get the job done for them whether you call them a consumer or not.

Jay Haynes: 33:46

Yeah, that's that's great point. Well, thanks for listening. Remember to subscribe and like this podcast and if you want to learn more about jobs, we innovation methods and growth powered equity value creation, visit us@thrv.com