How Would You Beat Peloton Using Jobs-to-be-Done?

Jay Haynes: 0:00

Welcome back to How would you beat where we discuss how you can use jobs to be done innovation methods to beat your competition. In this episode we will look at how you could beat peloton. peloton has been in the news because they have made some big mistakes and even plan to layoff 40% of their sales and marketing team. Their stocks down about 75% since its peak, so can jobs be done methods help explain what happened to peloton and how companies can avoid the same fate. And how would you beat peloton in the exercise and health domain? So Jared, what happened to peloton?

Jared Ranere: 0:38

That's a great question. So I have a peloton. I love it. I got it around when my twins were born because we knew we wouldn't be able to leave the house to exercise and we needed the most efficient exercise experience we could Monday goodbye. And so so we purchased it pre pandemic when demand seems you know, pretty pretty steady. I would say the company was doing well in the markets post pandemic about I would say three to five months and from what I understand demand shot through the roof. So gyms had been closed for awhile, people were understanding we might be on lockdown for a significant period of time. And people started buying peloton like crazy stock price went up. However, they couldn't keep up with the with the demand, the production ended up behind. They were backordered people were waiting three to five months, sometimes six months to get their their bikes. And so to meet that demand, they ramped up production. But by the time they did, the pandemic started to open up again, people started going back to the gym, and they had too many bikes for not enough demand. So now they were sitting on inventory, they decreased the price of the bikes about 400 bucks, which didn't help their profits. And demand never came all the way back as the pandemic has opened and opened. So it's a really interesting question. How do you appropriately understand demand and right size your manufacturing with that? So what can jobs to be done? Tell us about this.

Jay Haynes: 2:19

Yeah, it's so many interesting questions there. And it actually reminds me of Hayes modem, which people may or may not remember back in the days when I had a 1200 baud modem. But the internet started exploding. And basically, Hayes modem should have been one of the most valuable companies in the world, because all of a sudden people needed the device that's plugged into their phone line to get them on the internet. This is the days of you know, you've got mail, you listen to the old dial up crazy noise. And but they went bankrupt, or they went out of business, I forget the the end result. But they they really struggled because they had huge working capital problems. And working capital problems are effectively in the job of optimizing cash flow, which every company has to do. And that's the ultimate goal, you know, a CFO, the end of the day companies are trying to create value for customers and then create equity value through cash flow. So so if you don't manage your cash flow correctly, you know, you can go out of business quick because you either if you're growing too fast companies actually have what's known as a sustainable growth rate. It's the growth rate just inherent to their economics, their receivables in their payables and their profit margins, how much cash how much growth they can sustain, before they get outside debt and equity financing. So that's, that's a problem on the upside with Hayes not on the problem of the downside is, of course, in peloton case, if the demand stops starts to drop, you're going to be stuck with a lot of inventory. And this used to happen all the time in the 70s and 80s. In, in industries, but you know, in Silicon Valley, for example, when you had a lot of hardware, you had chips, and then you'd have big supply chain problems. And so, the the solution in Palatines case is, is really multi-dimensional Not surprising. But in each of those dimensions, there is something where Joss Whedon can help. Now, the first thing and this is this is why we we do tell companies, they should be constantly having a market pulse on customers through some quantitative survey mechanism to figure out what's going on around the customer's job. Because and we use this example a lot where there might be something like a pandemic coming that could change the demand in your favor or go against you, Trump dramatically. Right and but that's that's a huge macro issue that's hopefully very rare, rare, we don't know once soon and this one's coming to an end. But um, But they're usually in markets too. Whether it's your segment of customers in the market or your target there's something going on that you might not be aware of. And effectively that's what happened with peloton they didn't they didn't factor in weight there's this huge change you know Jared, you had twins and now you got to exercise at home and all of a sudden you have this new demand for exercise equipment in your home to optimize your health you know that you didn't that you wouldn't have considered before for whatever reason. And so that's why it's important to have you know, a pulse on it. But then the other question is just generally the platform to to use exercises solution to optimize your health. Are there market opportunities there that look different than peloton peloton figured out one thing that was pretty interesting. People like to stare at a screen with other people and ride a bike? That was that was pretty innovative. Right? And they they connect? Well?

Jared Ranere: 5:53

Yeah, there were unmet needs there, I think is what's pretty interesting about that. And so I think the way you just described it as kind of an interesting way to look at the segment they targeted right, so So you know, when I when I got my peloton, we were at home a lot more than we ever were before. And we had to be because we had infant twins, you key if you have one infant, you're at home a lot more than you are otherwise. And, and that was true with a lot more people during the pandemic, they had to be home a lot more than they would otherwise be. And so if you think about maybe that's their target segment, right, people who are trying to get the job done of stay fit, and they have an unmet need, they struggle with the job because they can't leave their home to do it, at will. And so they needed to get this job done incredibly quickly. And that segment size predicts the demand of a peloton and other at home exercise equipment for that matter. And so I think if you understand your target segment, that way, they struggle to get the job done, because they can't leave home at will, that might help you better predict where the demand is going, you know, as opposed to thinking like, well, you know, it's not because as we know, it's not the demand for a bike with a screen on it. Nobody wants that, right? What they want to do is stay fit. And the bike with the screen on it satisfies unmet needs for a certain segment of the population. So if you misunderstand that, if you suddenly think, oh, bikes with screens on it are on fire, everybody wants one of those. That's one of the things that could cause you to over forecast demand, and misunderstand what's going on in your market?

Jay Haynes: 7:44

Yeah, I think that's such a great analysis. Because, you know, as, as we know, from jobs theory that, you know, customers don't want a bike with a screen on it, they want to optimize their health and exercise. So I think there's so, so many ways you could approach competing with peloton and have absolutely nothing to do with a bike and a screen. Right worse. And there are there are I mean, there's so do the exercise market is just huge. With lots of incredible solutions out there there are It's an amazingly innovative market. But I think the thing that's interesting from a customer perspective, where customer value comes into hits, peloton is balance sheet, and where companies can build more resilience ease into their business model, that still creates customer value. And it really is the relationship between the customers willingness to pay to get the job done, and the frequency of getting the job done. Now, exercise happens to be a market where we know from 10,000 different studies that you got to exercise every day, or you know, at least like X number of minutes for x, you know, three or four or five days a week. Right? Right. There's even I think there was even a recent study, which I was amazed that is like, could you exercise for five seconds. It turns out it's it works like it does improve if you exercise for five seconds. I think that's really depressing because it probably means the entire country really, really needs to exercise more. But, but if you were to if you were to take on peloton and you wanted us jobs to be done to beat them, the way you would look at this job is really of course that functional job just achieve using exercise to optimize your health. And you can even get very specific right so someone who has cancer, their exercise routine might be different than someone who's you know, 20 something and super healthy. Or if you have diabetes and you're trying to lose weight, you know, there's a whole set of conditions where your exercise routine is gonna be different than you know arm Schwarzenegger is or whatever. So I think that that's a really interesting way to look at the jobs and essentially segment customers because as you say, not everybody wants a bike with a screen on it.

Jared Ranere: 9:56

Right. And I think that just a dial into What you just said about the different types of exercise you might achieve and different goals you have. It's a, it's why we often use this word optimize for the high level goals, right? Because you're trying to achieve your fitness goal, whatever that may be, you know, at the head, the amount of effort that works for you, it's an optimization problem, right? How do I how do I look the way I want be as healthy as I want without it overtaking my life, more than I want it to, some people do want it to overtake their life, because it's a hobby, and it's fun for them. Some people want next to nothing to do with it. So the way to cover it for the whole population is talking about a bit like an optimization problem. And that's why that word comes up so often and just be done.

Jay Haynes: 10:42

Yeah, that's a great point, because you're always making trade offs and optimization is you know about making trade offs. And in fact, this peloton example is a great example of optimization, you had to make trade offs in a pandemic, or having twins, right, you know, you, you now have different constraints that require trade offs. So if before you were going to the local pool every day, and swimming, you know, an hour, and now you definitely can't go to local pool because it shut down because a pandemic and you also might not want the extra hour of like half hour of getting to the pool, half hour coming home from the pool, because you've got two kids and you don't have that hour and you might need to cut your workout to 15 minutes. Right. I'm personally a fan of that, you know, Tim Ferriss, author of The Four Hour Body did an amazing book, he calls it the minimum effective dose. And, you know, he has a very, very short amount of exercise time in a work week. But, but I do like that idea. I'm not I'm not addicted to exercise, like some people. Yeah,

Jared Ranere: 11:46

and maybe some people are satisfying social needs through their exercise as well. Right, which is why going to the pool or to the gym would satisfy needs in that job for them. And when they are stuck at home, the peloton helps a little bit with that, because one of the competitors has been taken out of the equation. So and that's that other angle, right? Is there's a competitive situation here. Yeah. So, you know, the question is always how well do you satisfy that need in comparison to the other available solutions to the customer, suddenly, a whole set of solutions that satisfied a bunch of needs in this job, were taken off the table, which are gyms, pools, public places where you can exercise. And so the peloton became the the best available option in a market that was a little bit distorted, you know, or at least just had a temporary condition on it.

Jay Haynes: 12:45

Yeah, I think the way to look at that is the constraints on getting the job done with the current platform were changed, right? You literally couldn't go to a gym or a pool. And those are those are. I don't want to use the word artificial, but they certainly are hopefully temporary. So you can't bet the company and your growth and a huge amount of working capital on that temporary constraints because those will be removed. And what I think's interesting is if you were to compete with peloton, one of the things that they do is target those people who want to work out in groups and be motivated by another person. And that's obviously a big part about the market. It's why people will sign up to go to yoga class or go to spinning class or you know, or sign up for the peloton classes and it is motivating. You're like, Okay, everybody worked really hard sweat and so, but the the motivation job is in on its own really interesting to study. So, because that as well is underserved and has big segments in it, where people the solution for them is not at all, you know, go to a gym or be in a class, you know, these people very, very personally in my family who would who would not go to a class like, right, but certainly if you're an introvert, like being in a class other people you're like, how do I do this exercise? And am I doing it right, and you know, it's like the anxiety inducing is that they're looking to exercise. So that's a big segment of the market as well. And then, and then of course, there's so many parts of the job that are still underserved because people are figuring out what to do to optimize their health, given the exercise they need to do with the conditions that they have. Yeah, and I'm not aware of any solutions that attack the problem in that way today, where you just type in, I'm 250 pounds, you know, 42 years old, I have cancer, and I need an exercise routine. And then that's just outputs and says this is what you need to do. We're going to the app itself is the intelligence to help you get the job done to stay in health. And it would include how do you how do you figure out where that we're at? Why is that person demotivated? You know, there's all sorts of things like do they have the time in the day? What time? Are they given their circadian rhythms or at night person, morning person wherever they work out? Do they can they allocate that you know, all transportation? Can they finance it? There's a billion things in health that are so important to consider. And this This is how you would compete with peloton you would take this approach to figuring out this segment of the market is really underserved and not going to buy a peloton.

Jared Ranere: 15:29

Yeah, I think that's great. And so that's one way right? You get more of the job done. Right. So, so you can satisfy unmet needs at peloton because in touch right now, it's more and

Jay Haynes: 15:41

more of that related job? Motivation job. Yeah. Because you might know that you need to do push ups. But if you actually if you're not doing them, you know, yeah.

Jared Ranere: 15:52

And I think the gym is a great competitor that showed that they could take share from peloton at least, because they, for the segment that had enough time to really satisfy the social needs they had related to exercise, they would go to the gym where they could satisfy the better than at home on the screen. And so that's a segmentation question, right, you can choose a different segment to target. And that segment might be people who have more time, it could be the people who, as you said, are introverts, which maybe they're a good solution for peloton, or maybe you could do even better with the introverts and get them in a situation where there are no other people, like there's not even a leaderboard, and there's no high fives being sent your way. You know, like maybe there are unmet needs for for that segment. So that I think the segment choice is a really good way to go after peloton and what's great about this market. These This is one of the great markets because almost everybody is in the market in some way. Right? You might have some non consumers who find it too difficult to get motivated to exercise to stick to a routine and so they they've opted out and they're not purchasing solutions right now. But they sure should, or ought to. Yeah. And so the number of customers in this market is just enormous. And so yeah, a lot of segments and have great businesses.

Jay Haynes: 17:20

Yeah, you don't need to go after everybody in the same way obviously. And and that's a that's a really great point about peloton, and also how could they come back and compete in the market and there's a few different things to say that I think can can really help focused on where the customer value creation is, is one who's the customer so in in the gym example they can be great customers for peloton, obviously because, you know people like peloton are in a group and you can still have the virtual group and your screen while you've got a real group next year. You know that? Right? They can be great customers and I think I don't know but I bet they they got a little bit over enthusiastic about like we don't even need the gyms anymore because everybody's just buying direct from peloton.

Jared Ranere: 18:03

Well, yeah, they had a studio model where they had their own gyms that got shut down during the pandemic. And I don't know, I know they were distributing to gyms because I worked lived in an apartment building in New York that had one. And I don't know, to the extent that they continue to distribute to gyms or stop purchasing because they were shut down for a

Jay Haynes: 18:23

while. Yeah, yeah, well, they I think they obviously stopped purchasing during the, you know, big shutdown. But, but that could come back. But the other approach to this is, this is the health domain. The other thing to define this exercise would be incorrect, or actually incorrect, might be too harsh of a statement. But it's inaccurate. It's not arrow. It's an arrow, where the health because I mean, I think it's like a law of physics, the diet, exercise, diet, exercise is gonna make you healthier. I mean, my wife and I joke, there's like another story in the paper, you know, diet, exercise makes you healthier. So I think it's it's pretty important. So exercise is part of health. Now there's, there's this very small segment that's like elite athletes that are it's not health, it's like competition. And that's, that's fine. That's a different market, you know, that is the elite athletes market, but in the broad population, because this is part of health. There are a lot of partners, and there's some of this happening today. But of course, our healthcare system has this, you know, this function that it's responsive to what you get health problems. It's not preventative, and there's a lot of effort to change this, but that is real opportunity. Because if you're looking at all the people that are in the health domain, all the companies, all the different job beneficiaries, the different job executors, the different payers, like insurance companies, and even the government insurance programs and states, you know, and private employers and you know, public employers like this. There's a whole ecosystem here where are dissecting that, and it's not easy to figure out. But that's where jossey Dudden can be really, really helpful because it helps you manage that complexity and say, Okay, if we're going to really partner with insurance companies to go to employers to get them on a health plan that's using our XYZ solution, whether it's peloton or something else. Okay, how does that work? And that's a situation that is an enormous market opportunity. We don't even need to do market sizing on that. That's, it's just so big. It's a percentage of That's

Jared Ranere: 20:30

right. And what's interesting about it is it could be a stabilizer on their demand problem. Yeah, because it could also, you know, they're, they're widely seen as a premium product for good reason, it's quite expensive. So instead of dropping their price, they get it subsidized. And that expands their target segment. So instead of just going after people with little time who are stuck, have to be home more frequently, but still want to stay fit, and can afford this premium product, they can go down market, without subsidization and still remain profitable. So it's a strategic move, that helps them expand their target customer base.

Jay Haynes: 21:05

Yeah, and the executing the job never ends. Because even if you know you're a healthy 65 year old, unfortunately, everybody dies. We haven't figured out that problem yet. So it's ongoing. And, and that means you really can if you think of your customer, and what you're trying to do is help them achieve their goals to get their jobs done over their life. This is a lifetime value. This can be enormous, because as you move from your 20s, your 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s, whatever, obviously, you know, the type of exercise you're going to be doing is is going to be different. And so it is it is a really hard problem to figure out given all these different, essentially categories of customers from job beneficiaries, to executors to purchasers, but again, that's where if you were to compete against peloton, you even before you came up with any idea of what the solution should be, should it be a spinning bike? Should it be an app? Should it be a set of weights or you know drugs or you know, it doesn't? You take this solution agnostic approach first, and then find those market opportunities. And then if you are a company like peloton and you wanted to compete like this, you have a platform already so the other thing that jobs you know helps you do is say okay, where are the platform extensions that we need to do and peloton has done some of this I believe they have an app that you can just do peloton exercises. You know what? That's

Jared Ranere: 22:35

right, yeah, you there's a there's a mobile app, there's a Roku app, you can do yoga, you can jog with it, they have a treadmill product, which had complications regarding a recall and some physical health danger risks. people enjoying themselves on it, set that aside for a minute. But they are expanding their product suite to help different people who want to exercise in different ways. And this makes a lot of sense. Those are the bright spots where they could bounce back. Because one really interesting thing about this problem they have is that their existing customers are not giving it bad reviews. They love the product. So they have done an extremely good job at satisfying unmet needs for their target segment. They just misunderstood how big that segment was, and how many people had that those unmet needs. And yeah, sorry, good. I was gonna say and so the question is, how do you find another segment you can target with, you know, additional features, different products, and they're trying and I think they've made made headway, but it's going to take a while for that to rectify the issues they've had with the with the mistakes in demand forecasting?

Jay Haynes: 23:48

Yeah, so I think that's great. There's, that's the two categories of problems just to simplify a little bit, which is one where with their existing platform, which is clearly also just a software and a network, which is great. So that given that platform beyond just the bike and the treadmill, where there are new customer segments and opportunities, that would obviously be the most beneficial. The second one is the question we haven't addressed as much here. But is this the immediate problem they have, which is an internal job they need to get done, which is to optimize cash flow. And that's interesting because not just for peloton, but for companies that are trying to build solutions in this cash flow finance domain. Why didn't they have just enormous flashing red lights on their dashboard? Like yeah, assessing cashflow is dynamic over time. You know, it's essentially your working capital. You've got cash coming in from your receivables, you've got cash going out from your payables, you've got debt, you've got a service. You've got employees and payroll, etc. So those are those are all very standard accounting. and definitions that get you to your cash flow position. But the market opportunity for that is and we've seen this again, again is to figure out okay, well, why didn't the CFO of peloton just have a giant red flashing light saying you, you are headed into some serious headwinds? And so massive amount of risk? That, by the way, is unnecessary. What's I think interesting about Jared, your comment that their customers are so satisfied, you know, what, I was giving him bad reviews? And obviously, they probably have the metrics on like, Are people still using our bikes? Or did they just, you know, the famous like, dust collecting collection of exercise equipment, everybody has their house. So they know that so those are opportunities to help those people get the job done better across the whole job, not just like, while you're sitting on the exercise bike, right. And, and I think they've done this, or maybe some of the other companies do that get into nutrition is a good example of where, you know, since your optimized health exercise, part of it diets, the other party, etc. And even mental health, I mean, I know it seems wildly outside of the domain of a, you know, spin bike company to get into mental health, but it's all part of the domain.

Jared Ranere: 26:11

Well, they touch on that for sure. Like, it's, I wouldn't call it a named program. But there's, it's very obvious when you do their classes that their instructors are either trained or just naturally good at inserting commentary about mental health and providing recommendations throughout the workout. So they're constantly connecting your sense of self and your confidence and your awareness and mental health with the exercise you're doing and trying to improve both at the same time. So it is a it's an outstanding product. So it was a bit sad to see these difficulties they had, you know, I think the the optimized cashflow struggle that you pointed out is extremely interesting, because it may they might not have had that red flashing light, because the forecasting of demand was incorrect. So it made their working capital look great, because they were forecasting a higher number of sales than was correct. And that forecast is where where the mistake was made. And it could have been, you know, I don't work there. But perhaps it was this this segmentation question that wasn't Yeah, totally understood.

Jay Haynes: 27:30

And yeah, and I think that's a great point that when you're looking at customer segmentation, you really want to size that segment. It's an incredibly important part of jobs theory, but just to any any, you know, product development or growth investment. You have to look at the segment from the segment's point of view and their struggle to get the job done. Not the traditional demographic segments, you know, male, female, old, young, high income, low get low income, you know, those usually don't tell you what the real segment is the segment of the people who are struggling. And in this case, you had a new segment of a group of people who were struggling because they couldn't leave their house, they had twins, it's a pandemic, you know, all that stuff. But what could what you could do in that segmentation is really identify the people, the real segment, independent of the pandemic, who are, are struggling in a way across the dimensions of the job, that it's obvious they would put something in their house, they would buy another piece of exercise gear. Right, right, right. I'm not in that segment. I really love like, I like deer in other markets, but just not exercise here. So you could figure that out, and you could count and know how many people at least have a higher probability of understanding that segment, and it struggles accurate, right? And then that becomes an input into that cash flow equation, because you would recognize we've got this really big temporary explosion in in, in our, our regular segmentation analysis.

Jared Ranere: 29:08

Yeah, perhaps reaching a saturation point, right, where you got 30 40% Share, and we shouldn't expect to get too much more.

Jay Haynes: 29:16

Yeah. And I think that would be that's a really fascinating way to look at it. And again, this is why we recommend to companies just keep this market pulse survey, you know, going all the time, because you can get really good, you know, near real time data on what's happening here. And what, Jared, I think you've got a great analysis there. It's been hypothesis, we'd have to actually go get the data on this, but it's notable that the segment of people that they were targeting became saturated, but they believed the segment was larger because of this temporary, artificial constraints on getting the job done with the gym outside the house platform. So everybody is forced over to the in house platform and That could have hidden the fact that their segment without the constraints was saturated or starting to be harder, you know, if you start to take 40% of a market, or sometimes even 30 or 20, it's harder to get that incremental other share, because you've got competitors, and you've got people who are using alternative solutions. And you have to really add a ton of customer value over and beyond to take that share. And generally what will happen is, there'll be another platform that you need to go after, because, you know, no one has 100% market share of any market, right? Even though it might seem like Google has close to 100% of search. It does seem like there's some duopoly Yeah. So yeah, really, really fascinating stuff. And I think that hopefully, this helps people you know, get a an idea of where jobs to be done can be applied across different customers and different external problems, different partner problems, different internal problems. And peloton happens to be one of those great examples where I think they literally had all those problems.

Jared Ranere: 31:10

Oh, yeah, it's incredibly complex situation. And, you know, we left aside the whole fact that their, their hardware is complex to manufacture. And once you get that engine going, probably difficult to slow down production, without cutting ex employees who you've trained and invested in, right, and then it feels like, you've got sunk costs there. And you could fall into the sunk cost fallacy of like, you know, how do we get rid of these people and ramped down production and we've invested in so much and making it happen. There's, there's a lot of complexity in this problem.

Jay Haynes: 31:46

Yeah, it's interesting that you bring that up so and people have suggested that Apple would be a good acquirer for peloton. You know, Apple's clearly invested in health jobs. I mean, it's a big part of recent launches around the watch. And the phone rightfully so he's doing some interesting stuff, you know, great stuff. But what I don't think they get is the peloton is just an order of magnitude different supply chain size, a scalability. Like I don't think that's something perhaps Apple would get into that. But I bet if you did this segmentation analysis that people you know, peloton is tiny compared to Apple righteously. So to make it to have it be a rounding error in Apple's revenue would would really be extraordinary. Now they've done some interesting stuff, right? They bought beats, which is interesting. But that that really does get into Apple's core media, you know, production tools, and now even in media production itself.

Jared Ranere: 32:56

Absolutely. And they're competing on that front with peloton which is interesting, right? You know, you mentioned that part a big part of peloton is platform is the software and the content and Apple is now creating content. They have a health app where you can download workouts, some of them are walking, some of them are jogging and they narrate you through them. So they're competing with peloton and if they can do that without creating a large piece of complex hardware that's very likely very expensive to ship around the world and is only attractive to a small segment, then they can do so in classic Apple fashion at extremely high margins. There if they're taking away customers from peloton with only content and software that is a much more profitable play. And if I were peloton, I would be very nervous about that.

Jay Haynes: 33:50

Yeah, although let's end this this episode and how would you beat Apple and health? Because it's related to peloton they're competing with each other. So who's going to win? Yeah, and my view is there still enormous opportunity because even what Apple's doing, there's some truly, you know, good innovative stuff, the step counter, you know, the circles and those are great kind of health interface innovations, which is not surprising. The apple is very good at interfacing. But what I would say on the functional job if you know Apple created an AI obviously they may have had some updates to it when it first launched. I check it out and it was it was indistinguishable from peloton classes. It was a different instructor in a different environment. And of course it looked beautiful because Apple does everything looks beautiful. But it wasn't fundamentally different. You're still we're doing jumping jacks and sit ups and trying to be motivated that that is not the area the job that I think needs innovation. And that's what jobs done would really reveal like how would you compete with Apple and peloton even if you were a startup, or you're another kind of exercise platform? Clearly software is involved in it because software is everywhere because this is a job that requires metrics and measurement and so software's very good at that and decision making, but there's a lot of opportunity left on the table. Oh yeah, Poland peloton are not addressing either of them. So I think that is how at the end of the day you would compete with peloton and apple. And of course, hopefully at the end of the day, they'll they'll figure it out, too. You know, we all want the solutions to keep everybody healthy. And we certainly, you know, in the US and throughout a lot of the world, we need a lot of innovation and health and exercise. So hopefully, this will help companies along the way who are helping customers optimize their health.

Jared Ranere: 35:43

Yeah, that's a great place to end. Thanks.

Jay Haynes: 35:45

Great. Thanks. And don't forget to subscribe and like the podcast and check us out@thrv.com